SPEAKER_02 0:04

Hi Casma. Hi Casper.

SPEAKER_01 0:06

How are you today? Um How am I today?

SPEAKER_00 0:11

I'm I'm good, I guess. Yeah, I'm good. I still feel I don't have jet lag, but I still feel like I'm not ha you know not getting proper sleep after summit.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 0:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

But maybe that's that's not just summit, but also both of our sons have been confirmed Saturday. Yeah. Um so maybe maybe that's playing a role as well.

SPEAKER_02 0:39

Yeah, coming back and hosting a massive party. Yeah. Exactly. But that's what we like to do. That's what we like to do. How are you? I'm really good. Uh kind of the same situation. Sleep is good.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:51

Uh though, um we're leaving for London this week uh to uh digital marketing work forum um where we have uh a booth and a presentation. Um so yeah, upwards and onwards, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:06

Yeah, so finishing one and then jumping straight into the next one.

SPEAKER_02 1:09

Yeah, exactly. Okay, yeah. Um so but that's that's uh spring. That's uh like usually event season would be like the fall, but I feel like this spring has really been exciting around this as well. Um talking about events, yeah. We just came back from one. Yes, as you as you mentioned.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

Um and I think we should just spend five ten minutes on what was actually announced, right? The last episode we recorded at Summit. We had Derek and Jason and Caitlin talking a bit about what was released and experience leak and stuff, but what was actually announced at Summit?

SPEAKER_02 1:48

Exactly. Right, and you did an awesome blog post. Actually, for me, it was like I speak a lot to you, but I was like, this is like this is what we need. Like this, I needed this as well because it becomes very high-level sometimes. So just saying, hey, in in the in the field that we are in, in marketing, what are the actual things that we need to to uh to look out for? And I saw uh Brandon from Qualcomm uh this weekend also posting about like instead of having these high-level conversations, how do we make this hands-on? How do we make it that list that we will start working on now instead of something that that we vision about that will maybe happen sometime?

SPEAKER_00 2:26

I I really like that approach actually. And I think what's I think what's interesting is that um a lot of things were announced, and it's something that's actually happening in near time. Yeah, uh, I remember when uh Experience Platform was announced, then it took a couple of years before they actually started selling it, but it was like a vision that they had, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and I think part of this is still a vision, but at the same time they're pretty far in the the I don't know if you can call it like the development. I think it's it's still near future of uh some of the releases, right? And as Derek mentioned, some of it, some of it was coming out in just two weeks' time from when we did the recording.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

And is the majority of things is coming out in in June, I think it was.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:15

Um what what is your top list then? My top list of most exciting things that we should get hands on right now.

SPEAKER_00 3:24

Yeah, I think that's difficult to say. I think uh I think it's actually more interesting to talk about the change of direction that Adobe is doing. Yeah. Right? So they're rebranding it, it's no longer Experience Cloud, it's CX Enterprise. Yes. Um and and with that, there is also a new um umbrella for um for analytics, CX Analytics. And I talked to some of the Adobe employees at the booth at Summit, and they mentioned that the biggest or the most frequently asked questions that they had received was Is that a new product coming out? Yeah, is Adobe Analytics being killed? What about CGA? But reality is that it's it's not a new product, it's it's a new umbrella for you know a handful of solutions under the CX analytics, right?

SPEAKER_02 4:13

A direction for actually getting it to work in real life, exactly a direction for it, right?

SPEAKER_00 4:18

Um and and I'm just looking through my my notes here, and and obviously we have uh CGA as part of it, there's the data insights agent, there is the uh conversation insights from LLMs, um and then what's really interesting, we've been working with Mixmodeler as well. Yeah, uh, and we have another episode talking about what Mix Modeler is, exactly, but they are they are rebranding and adding more features to it and now calling it MCA, marketing campaign analytics. And uh I was I was actually meeting with the product director for uh for Mix Model or MCA, and and when when I initially heard that they were rebranding it to MCA, I was thinking of why MCA, you know the song, right? That's your that's a question before that's good. But what was interesting was that uh he said, well, it's um he was actually thinking of what was it a rap group where somebody's called MCA. Is it not beastie boys? I'm looking at you because you're like the music guy.

SPEAKER_02 5:35

Yeah, I feel I'm caught in the in the light here. M C A. M C A. Should I do a quick Google search for that? W M C A. W N W A.

SPEAKER_01 5:51

N W A. M W A. N W A. That's a Rap Band. Okay. I'm not sure that was it. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:59

And it's losing a bit of traction now that I can't remember it, right? Perfect setup. But the fantastic setup. But the funny thing was that we had a uh uh funny talk about that, you know, there's two groups of people, one is thinking of the YMCA, and the other one is like a rap group, right? And he was more the rap group and I was more the MCA.

SPEAKER_02 6:18

I see Adobe and the Adobe community has been using run DMC a lot, right? That's right. Run CGA and all these things, which is a I wish I came up with that.

SPEAKER_00 6:27

Um but it doesn't it doesn't sound as you know, run run CGA is is fancy, but why MCA is it doesn't have the but it has the community feel as well.

SPEAKER_02 6:38

I like that. Like we talked a lot about that from our our recent episode, right?

SPEAKER_01 6:42

Yeah. About that.

SPEAKER_00 6:43

So but but anyway, so so that's that's coming and and it's gonna be having a better integration into AP and is being you know built on some of the the or using the same foundation as the rest of the stack on on platform, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's not a new product, but it's a new umbrella from for multiple products, right? Yeah, yeah and I think the I think the overall the overall takeaway is that Adobe is going all in on AI, right? Yes. With the agents, uh they also have the uh agent orchestrator, they have the uh you know MCP service, we talked about that in the last episode with Derek, um and then the uh CX coworker, yeah. Which is really interesting, right? And I think if you're familiar with any of the AI solutions with you know, Claude has, I think that's called workspace, right? Claude workspace or coworker, whatever, you know, you have an idea of what is actually possible with these, right? Yeah, and then just imagine that this is just within the Adobe space, exactly right.

SPEAKER_02 7:53

And I and I love it, and I think like the the the Adobe way of approaching it, like from our side, from the data side, like having these umbrella thoughts, like the experience platform has been great because as soon as you kind of set it up in the correct way, then you kind of enrich your entire stack in that. And I think the Enterprise CX like really displayed this well as well. Um but also talking a lot about agentic. How how does the market marketing market transfer right now where we instead of asking questions, get asked questions? Yeah, have you seen this? Are you doing these uh things? Yeah, which from our side opened up a lot of interesting conversations coming back saying, hey, like it's it's almost determined to talk again, right? But but it's we don't trust tools, people trust people, people don't trust tools, yeah. Um but again, it's about like what I like about the Adobe thing also is that it enables people to make the tools help in the way, so we use AI as a workflow instead of replacing the people who actually brings the data together and stitches it up.

SPEAKER_00 9:04

And and one of the takeaways as well was that Adobe Solutions has been used as a as a reporting tool with workspaces, and what they really want to do is actually moving away from being a reporting tool, but actually a tool that you get insights from and take action on, right? Exactly. And and I think the AI piece of that is is is playing a key role of transforming that, right? Yeah, and and I mean I I'm I've certainly seen my shares of companies who and I think we talked about this as well, like our getting the full ROI from the solution, right? Because it's it's it's a set and forget from an implementation perspective, and then it's just running dashboards that uh nobody's looking at or some is looking at, right? Um but there's not that many who actually have like a dedicated analyst hired who's sitting and finding insights and then taking action on them, right? It's it's typically just whoa the numbers gone up, yay.

SPEAKER_02 10:09

And in many cases, they're asked to fix the data rather than find the interesting parts to act on, right?

SPEAKER_00 10:14

Yeah, a lot of the effort is spent on making sure that the data quality is correct, right? I think that's still gonna be critical just because if if and it's it's a it's a broken record, right? But if you don't trust the numbers, you you're not gonna be trusting the numbers, and AI is gonna be generating for you or showing you insights on, right? Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 10:34

The data foundation is the key here. Yeah. Um I have a presentation in London about this exact uh because we tend to not trust the tools when it's often the data foundation that that lacks.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:48

Um and this means that this tool, the next tool, AI, whatever it's gonna be next, is gonna fail. But if we fix these foundations, then we actually have the right setup to do anything. And we see enterprises winning right now with this. Yeah, we see Google saying, hey, bring in line data before you bring your money. We see uh big agencies say, hey, own your own data. And we see enterprises like when we have this under control, we can move so fast that we can be front runners. Yeah, it's a complete pivot where it's it's enterprises realize it's not the tools. We need the tools. Our Martech is what we said, and where most of our money is going. But to make it work, if we put in the right foundations and the right strategies, this and the right data ownership from from upper marketing management, then tools like Adobe or or whatever you're using is like so powerful. Yeah, so so powerful for marketing.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

I think I think a critical thing though is and which is never shared at Summit, but is is gonna be the the biggest question from clients is what is this gonna cost, right? Yeah, because the agents are not gonna be enabled uh for everyone, right? There's uh the current agents that they have is currently has a cost on it, right? And I have no idea, right? Um my concern would be that it's probably not cheap, which also requires that that the companies investing in this have a certain um maturity in order to get value from them, right? Yes, and I think the biggest value is probably for for the customers who have a low maturity, right? Which is the majority of companies today? Yeah, because I I know that there's a lot where there's just a few people actually working in the Adobe Stack, right? And I think those are the companies who could everybody's gonna benefit from it, right? But if as long as you change your workflows and stuff like that. But but if you're just a a one-man band or a two-man band, you can be much more efficient if you have agents and you know the AI workflows integrated into the um into the stack, right? But but I think it's for those companies where it might be difficult to actually justify the cost that might be coming with these agents.

SPEAKER_02 13:15

Yeah, right. I agree. What we see like we work a lot with the maturity framework about the data foundations going into Adobe and essentially whatever you're using. And the first one is is taking ownership from upper marketing management, aligning the things. So we need to align your efforts across. Okay. When we do these things, when we start making sense, so the data that goes into where upper management looks at numbers, where we like so we don't have to disaffeate everything to make it make sense. It's not longer IDs or UTMs, now it's like the naming that we use in our business. Once we have these, the existing tools that you have start working, and this is where the Adobe pack, for instance, with all the new features, it starts working. Yeah, like 100% of the time starts working with these simple things. Then we're when we're able to scale it in our business, then we start seeing like the ROI of it, and we start attaching the cost and all the things to tools and everything. Then suddenly our activation starts showing in the tools and it works. And then when we can replicate that, that's when we see that fixing your data foundation fixes the tools, yeah, but it also 10x the outcome that you see from everything you do because you do objective commercial thinking, as we've been talking about in previous episodes as well. So this is also what, like with all these things that's going on, we all talk about data maturity and data ownership, but but we seldomly talk about what does it take to create it. Yeah, it's often like a buzzword, then we check it off. Of course, you need your data foundations right. Oh, next point here. Yeah, and I would love to see just to challenge a bit the entire setup for for any vendor in the world of of Matic. Like, how do we bring these conversations to life? How do we actually show the frameworks that it's working? Yeah, because the enterprises ruling, like again, Qualcomm is a genius example for me because I think they very early on said that to win this market, we need to be leaders in AI. Yeah, um, and they understand like the data foundation and talk about all these things, yeah. And they are also the ones saying, hey, instead of having a wish list coming back from summit, yeah, we have a checklist of what we need to do next.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

Yeah, because they have this in place, like it's it that's interesting, and I think from a checklist perspective, if companies want to prepare for for for these new things rolling out and and you know that that you can license for, I think, and and we're just gonna be repeating ourselves, but getting the data foundation in place, right? Yeah, is is the first thing that you should focus on, right?

SPEAKER_02 15:50

It's the first we should start talking about it, at least, right? So but but going back to the the checklist that you brought forward, like how does this because things actually happen at Summit, uh, and I saw from your post and your blog post that within analytics with this new umbrella, yeah. How how do you see this activated? The best way, what are what are the things that you would recommend your customers like looking at as a next step?

SPEAKER_00 16:17

Yeah, so I think um if there's not a process for the data quality or full owner of it, that's definitely uh something to look into, right? And uh I did a I did a uh quick talk at the Experience League booth as well, talking about um uh you know a framework for how to add more value to the business and get the business uh ownership as as part of this, right? Yeah, yeah. Um we call that the the lighthouse framework, and and I don't want to go into details on that, on on this one, we can do that in in a separate one, but but it's it's about making sure that there's a proper split of ownership between what's IT and what's the business, right? And ideally, the business should be setting the requirements towards IT on what data that they want, and it should be owning the data quality, right? Yeah, yeah, um, and oftentimes it it ends up living in IT because in most cases they are the ones paying the license for it. Um and there's always pros and cons for the different setups in that, right? Don't want to go into that, but I think starting the conversation with data quality, who owns it, and how can they evaluate the data quality, right? Um and then secondly, it's about buying buying into one of these agents or workflows, right? Don't get everything from the beginning, but find one and how can you incorporate that into your existing workflows, or how can you change your workflows to get the most value out of it, right? Yeah, yeah. Because I think what's what's and and it's difficult to say because we haven't had hands-on in any of this either, right? So we have no idea how good they are or you know how they function as such, right? But I think it's it it can be tricky if you get access to let's say five agents and then try and execute on all five, right? You you need to you need to increase your maturity on using these agents as well, right? And I'm still surprised on when I talk to people how many has not used an LMN, right? So so by suddenly having access to one in the tool, it it does require a different mindset on how you're working and how you're using it, right?

SPEAKER_02 18:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 18:36

Um so despite you and I being in marketing and uh I'm sure you're spending a lot of time on AI as well, then then we end up in a bubble where we think everyone is at the same level or have tried as many things as as we have. But the reality is that when when talking to the customers, there's surprisingly how many have never logged in and tried one.

SPEAKER_02 19:03

And it's interesting how many low-hanging fruits that are just in front of them, exactly, and how little we talk about it because we're always the next step from where we are ourselves, right?

SPEAKER_00 19:10

Yeah, and then then something that we haven't mentioned, but but is gonna be critical as well. I mentioned lysine as being one of the critical ones, and then I think from a GDPR perspective, yeah, that's that could potentially become a blocker for some companies, right? And obviously, it's something that Adobe hasn't touched upon because they are not responsible for it, they're just making making the tools available for you, right? But if if you're having an MCP, then it's it's your responsibility when you do the connection on you know whether you have consent for uh for uh using your customers' data in in the MCP.

SPEAKER_02 19:49

Yes, and it's so important, and I think like all this ties together in what you're talking about. So like we have IT on one hand, we have marketing on another hand, we need to coexist in in this AI space because when you talk about IT, you talk about uh like how do you secure yourself legally, how do you create the right environments, how do you stay compliant?

SPEAKER_00 20:11

Yeah, where and you can just see with the cookie consent how many struggle with doing that, right?

SPEAKER_02 20:16

Yeah, yeah. But at the same time, marketing is in a different position. Marketing's biggest challenge right now is is proving the impact of what they do back to the business because it becomes so siloed and all these uh like it's performance and channels are better than it's ever been, but proving the value back to business has never been worse. Like it's never been more difficult in modern marketing to to to justify uh the cost in in marketing, I think. So so these like this should be two areas that go hand in hand, but it often becomes like this weird internal fight in organizations. What is most important because one is not gonna function without the other, yeah. Um, yeah. So coming back to all these topics that you talk about with IT and marketing, and you like with legal rights, which essentially brings in a different department and all, like it becomes like enterprises need to come together in a different way that they've done before, yeah, very hands-on and at high speed because things are evolving so fast right now.

SPEAKER_00 21:18

Yeah, but uh it's gonna be really interesting to see how uh how they're working. The Adobe has been having some some AI engines, agents that to be honest, has not been fantastic. It's not that they, from my perspective, have improved the workflow or have made me more efficient in the way that I'm working, right? No, no. Um, so so this is a major step, and and Derek said that as well. You know, with the 2.0 that's coming out, they made dramatic improvements on some of these agents, right?

SPEAKER_01 21:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:51

So, um, but I can guarantee that as soon as they are coming out, we're gonna be some of the first ones to be be hands on and I'll definitely bring all the learnings that we get from those into uh into a new episode. We'd love that.

SPEAKER_02 22:05

And we've just before recording here, also talked about the coming episodes we're gonna record here. And and guys, we're gonna tap into this, like both the legal side and all these things too. And like how do we approach it? Like how we're looking into all these things right now, how we can bring this in in the best way to uh to bring forward this knowledge.

SPEAKER_00 22:22

I don't think you and I should try and be a legal advisor when it comes to uh how to use that data. So we'll find someone who can uh don't take legal advice from us. No, who can who can take that role and uh be very clear on you know what are companies allowed to do, uh what do they need to have in place to actually start using these?

SPEAKER_01 22:40

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

Um because I think it's it's something that many may not think about, right? That the MCP is coming out in a week from now, I guess this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:49

What data do you load into it?

SPEAKER_00 22:51

Yeah, what data don't you? And what does it take to load that data into it? Yeah, exactly. And and what license with the uh the the AI are you having, right? Because uh if you don't have an enterprise agreement with them, they are gonna be using that data to data to train the model.

SPEAKER_02 23:07

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

And I'm not sure whether you want uh your analytics data to be part of the training for one of those AI models, right? Yeah, anyway, let's uh on that um let's find someone who can actually uh better speak into that than uh than you and I, right? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 23:25

I think with that let's uh I I wanted before we you guys recommend that you go in and uh and actually read this blog post uh from from Casper. Thanks, Casper.

SPEAKER_00 23:35

We'll we'll include the link in the uh show notes.

SPEAKER_02 23:38

Yeah. Yeah. Because uh I think it's very relevant and very hands on to like what should we do next. So um cool.

SPEAKER_00 23:44

Thanks, Casper.

SPEAKER_02 23:46

Pleasure, as always. See you next week. See you next week.